Lee Jelenic Joins The Herd Has Spoken

Pro Hockey Player & Chief Innovation Officer at United Wholesale Mortgage -- Lee Jelenic

Brad and Lee talk about Lee’s crazy adventure from pro hockey to Wall Street, Ford Motor Company, and now United Wholesale Mortgage. Once the youngest executive at Ford, Lee now leads from the C-Suite in a publicly traded company. Lee dives into detail on the power of positivity and how he believes that believing in others is like giving them a superpower.

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Enjoy the conversation between Lee and Brad

Brad
Lee Jelenek Welcome to The Herd Has Spoken.

Lee
Brad, I’m happy to be here. I've been very excited about this day for a little while now.

Brad
Yeah, well, I want to just go ahead and jump right in excuse the dad joke, which you might not have even picked up on. But tell me what you know about Jump Magazine.

Lee
If you didn't, oh, man, that one is a blast from the past jump magazine was a short lived but prolific magazine teen magazine. Probably had an amazing run, I would say maybe between 1998 and 1999. But I happen to be in I think the first issue there was, I was walking across I was an undergrad at Yale. I can't believe you pulled this one out, man. I was walking across the campus at Yale, I think I was a sophomore. And now this young lady walks up to me and says, Hey, I work for Jump Magazine. We've got a premier issue coming up. And we're doing a feature on Ivy League guys. And I thought and she said, Are you interested? You know, it's this whole this whole, this whole theme of are you guys looking for brains or beauty? And? And I mean, you know, look, I'm 19 or 20 walking across campus going to class? I mean, it took me about three seconds to say sure. Anyway, it's funny, because I'm moving right now. And I think I blocked that one out. But I found a copy of the magazine and I don't think that I don't think the magazine stayed in business too long. Which is really a shame based upon the spread that I've heard rumblings about of you and a couple of your teammates on the yellow hockey team. But I obviously you've had a fantastic, you know, career that spans across professional hockey and Wall Street and being the youngest executive at Ford, and now the Chief Innovation Officer, whatever the heck that means. We'll get back to that at United wholesale mortgage. But I want to go back to your childhood in New Jersey. What was that? What were things like in the John Locke household? Yeah, you know, growing up, and I appreciate the homework you've done there growing up in New Jersey, I always say the New Jersey is the most densely populated state in the US. So really only the strong survive in New Jersey, so let's just get that out there. But, you know, growing up in New Jersey, I mean, I had one sister, Mom and Dad were great. The I, my parents worked very hard mama stay at home, and very dedicated to making sure my sister and I kind of had what we needed to grow and succeed. And my dad was a very hard worker and a successful businessman in his own right. But but took some risks along the way. I mean, I remember, I got to New Jersey when I was nine. But I was born in Toronto. I lived in Calgary for a bit, and Houston, Texas, and then ended up in New Jersey. And one of the things that stuck out in my head. My dad was in the newspaper business. And he was with a company in the newspaper in Houston that had been acquired by a competitor. And he didn't see eye to eye with the company that acquired the newspaper. And he resigned. And I remember there was about nine months, 10 months when I was eight, nine years old, but my dad was unemployed. And so we didn't know where the next paycheck was. And we were fine. They had saved money, but he was unemployed. And we didn't know where we were going to where the next job was going to be. I mean, at one point, we thought we're moving to Puerto Rico, with our moving to Colorado without moving to San Diego, and it ended up being New Jersey and got to New Jersey and the company he was with. He was like the number three or four person who owned some daily newspapers and some weekly newspapers. And within a few years of being their company was in chapter 11 bankruptcy and again, back to this uncertainty in my house, and kind of emerged that the company was acquired by some private equity to come out of bankruptcy. And when the dust settled, they made my dad the CEO. And so my dad had been someone who was born in Northern Ontario, a town called sebree. Both my parents are from there. And he played college football in Canada and a little bit of semi pro football in Canada in a league just below the CFL. And my parents are both very hard workers very dedicated. And they believe so much in the American spirit that even though they they were longtime Canadian, red residents before being in the US, they really identified with in the US, it doesn't matter your pedigree, it doesn't matter. The other great thing about our country, it doesn't matter who you know, who's in your network as much as how hard you're going to work and can you do the job and so, seeing my dad kind of go from these periods of uncertainty in the middle of his career, late 30s, early 40s to then becoming CEO and, you know, newspaper industry is not easy, of course, but he but he was able to take that company public by 1997. And, you know, the ending wasn't great, you know? 12 years later, we I can talk about that 13 years later, what happened to him and the business. But I just saw that in that couple things really stuck out to me one hard work is there is no replacement for its number one ingredient for success, and then dedication to family, which is what I got from my mom, you know, so seeing those two. And so my sister and I were very lucky. And our life was much about sports at that time. And I ultimately ended up going and playing hockey at Yale University, and my sister ended up getting us soccer scholarship to Syracuse. And so it kind of felt like that was just the normal thing. I mean, when I look back and use the two kids both go on and play division one sports, be realized now having a bunch of kids of my own, and how rare and how hard that would have been how much as a reflection of my parents, so longer answer than you were looking for. But there you go. No, that's, that's great. What What were the expectations like in your house, in terms of academic and athletic success for you and your sister? Yeah, I think when I think about, if I go back to that environment, it was almost like,

if you weren't doing well, in school, nothing else mattered, you know, with regard to of course, be a good person, you know, be a decent human being but but outside of sort of the basics of being polite, and respectful. My parents instilled in me, hey, there's one thing that matters here at school, and everything else in your life is second to that. And so it wasn't like they forced us with tutors and forced us with a bunch of extra work. And it wasn't like there was summer school, it was more just like, Hey, this is your main priority. You got to go handle this. And that's, you know, that's they weren't saying that when I was six. But, you know, by the time I was 1213, it was pretty clear. Hey, we'll support you. Well, you know, we'll travel all over the country for your hockey, or baseball or whatever it is. But if you're not, if you're not doing well, in school, if you're not being your best in school, all this stuff's gonna go away pretty quickly. So I think that was where, you know, there was, yeah, there was this, this instilled value of working hard and working hard at things that are really important, like, like education.

Brad
Yeah. So hard work. Sounds like it's the foundation for everything that you guys did in your family. And obviously, it's been a key part of of your success. As you as you were growing up clearly, athletics were a big deal in your family. And you are pursuing both baseball, and hockey. And this seems to me, I probably one of the first really big decisions that you had to make in your life in terms of which sport you were going to continue to pursue. How did you go about making that decision? Let's appreciate the question, Brad. So

Lee
it was hard because when I was 15, or 16, it started to be clear that I was pretty decent hockey player. And you know, there was some Ontario Hockey League teams that were scouting me and a couple NHL scouts had come to see me and obviously there were some college scouts coming. And they were all saying to me, that in order to reach my potential in hockey, I was gonna have to leave New Jersey. And it was either go out to Iowa, the Midwest, Iowa, or Nebraska and play in the United States Hockey League, the ushl, the top level Junior League or going to go to New England and go to prep school. And they basically, I mean, I had NHL scouts, college scouts, basically saying, Look, you've got potential 1516 year old but if you stay here in New Jersey, it's not a hockey hotbed, it kind of is now but back then it wasn't in the late 90s. You can kiss your hockey career goodbye. At the same time I was I'd been a pretty decent ballplayer and had kind of been lucky to grow up with a group of very good ballplayers. My best childhood friend growing up was it was a guy named Kevin Berry, who ended up pitching parts of five, six seasons with the Atlanta Braves. So he was my grade and he was my best buddy. And I had another really close friend that ended up playing going on a baseball scholarship to Drexel. So there's a good group of you know, baseball players and another baseball player ended up going and playing basketball, Lehigh so really good athletes and and I started to get some attention in baseball that I didn't expect to get and it was from really cool schools there was like Ohio State, Wake Forest. These are schools that were sending me letters inviting me out. And and so I actually got to a point where I said why I don't want to leave New Jersey. I want to prove that I can carve my own path as as an athlete. I really enjoy where I live. I don't want to give up my last two years of high school to go live in a you know in a billet family in Iowa. I certainly might. Well my father let me go to training camp in the AHL. The max you can stay was 48 hours before you lose NCAA eligibility. So I stayed 48 hours and came home.

Brad
But I, you know, it I, the decision went on really late. And I actually remembered I give this advice to kids that I talked to all the time, and whether they're their athletes that are being recruited or just kids that are trying to make that decision, where am I going to go to school, you feel like the weight of the world is on your shoulders. And if you don't get in somewhere, or if, you know, if you make the wrong decision, and and I look back and say, Look there, there really aren't wrong decisions, you're going to end up making the right one as long as you you bring your your A game wherever you go. And I'll speak a little bit. There's a quote that I heard later on in life, where I look back on that and say, of course, that's the way it works.

Lee
But it really came down to I found myself having an opportunity with Yale hockey, there were a few other Ivy League schools that were very interested. And and the baseball schools were all over the map. And I remember my dad just sat down and said, Look, you've made pretty solid decisions on the ones we've let you make, my mom kind of chimed in to and she just said, Look, there, you've got a chance to go play Ivy League hockey, we've, we grew up near Princeton, watching some Ivy League hockey games, and they just said, Look, I you know, we'll support you, whatever you do, but this is something you'll you'll, you'll thank us later for kind of steering you in this direction. And so then ended up you know, going to Yale, and of course, the culture on the hockey team. And those are some of my best friends in the world. Today, I still talk to the text chain with the guys from the Oh, one yellow hockey class that we talk every day. So one of the best decisions I ever made, but at the time you feel like I'm gonna set my life on the wrong track if I'm if I screw this up, and it's just not true, you know? Yeah, and I love hearing that and I feel like there might be a little nugget in here that that's that's pretty interesting, because I feel like there's something in you that really seem to be motivated by being able to prove people wrong and so maybe, maybe maybe I'm off base but what I'm hearing you is like there was something extra satisfying for you about being able to stay in your will say your de facto home state of New Jersey and being able to grow to a spot where you could get that D one hockey scholarship and pursue that path in a way that once you've got to D one hockey and Ivy League I mean clearly that's that's pretty well respected in terms of making it and I'm curious if I'm reading that correctly, that finding a way to prove other people wrong added a little extra fuel to your fire. You know what it was the kind of the first time I was able to really do that in a big sort of somewhat of a public way. And absolutely, and that's that's kind of that's been a theme that I've revisited from time to time my high school hockey coach used to say the best way to get Lee to do something is tell him you don't think he can he can do it Tell him you don't think you can accomplishment and accomplish it. He's gonna go do it and, and and that was very gratifying. I I went into Yale as a you know, as a young freshman, so I was one of the few in college hockey is known for 20 year old freshmen, you know, graduate high school from wherever you are, go play two years of junior come in as a 20 year old, I was able to come in, you know, as a just turned 18. And it was pretty gratifying to be able to say I did it my way there were only been one other player from New Jersey up to that point, his name was Jim doubt he played played 10 plus years in the NHL, he was the only other one that had gone right from New Jersey. Right to division one, I think he went to Lake Superior state. So yeah, you're 100% right. And and I, I revisit that multiple times in my journey. I love it. Well, I wonder here, if maybe your coach told you that you couldn't get into the penalty box, because I'm looking back at your statute from your last year at your at Yale 28 games, two goals, six assists. So of course, eight points, but 52 penalty minutes. So I'd love to hear from you. What is what is your? What is your strategy on? Like? How would you consider your, your strategy on the ice to be reflective of who you now are in, in business? Yeah, so it's when I look back on college hockey and what it taught me and I went into Yale as a highly touted offensive player as a score. I certainly hadn't been playing at as high level of other people that were there. Other people that had come from some of these other places that I chose not to go to. And so when I got there, I really had to scrap and claw and did not play a whole lot. As a freshman, we had a very good team and really had to grind my way into the lineup and by basically make it not giving my coach a chance to not play me. And so I clawed my way in as sort of a third or fourth line checking line player. And that was kind of how I played the four years. What's funny is I ended up when I got to the professional ranks. I sort of got back to I was one of those rare kids that was a better pro than a college player. I played pretty, pretty regular for the, the three of the four years in college. But I certainly realized that, at that time to play as a young freshman or young sophomore at Yale, I had to have every detail of the game I had to be prepared on and off the ice. And I think those are the those are the things that really I carried from that period of my life into business, which is, you know, there is no excuse for not being prepared. And there's nothing negative that comes from preparation and work ethic. So I made it so that I was always coming into the beginning of the season, you know, crushing it and all of the authorized testing, you know, having increased muscle mass, decreased body fat, increased speed measurable things. And and so then on the ice, it's kind of the same thing.

Brad
I mean, it's it's competition, you know, it's like organized battle. And the way I look at it is you're not always going to win, there are going to be mistakes you're going to make but the the inexcusable element is to not be outworked never be outworked. And so for me, I always played a very physical game, I defended my teammates. I thrived on kind of winning physical, you know, combative battles. And, and probably even to my detriment, I focused even more on that and playing that super scrappy brand of hockey and even, maybe skewed to sacrificing some offense and some skill that I that I ended up leaning back into for a couple years, I was able to play pro hockey, but it's that scrape and claw, if you're gonna beat me, I'm gonna make you feel some pain along the way. What a great attitude. And that's obviously something that's, that translates directly into the business world. And that's something I can I can certainly personally attest to, as as well. One of the things that you've said to me, is that believing in others is a superpower. So you've clearly, you know, achieved a lot in your athletic and now professional endeavors, who believed in you to allow you to achieve your goals?

Lee
Yeah, that's, that's a, that's core to who I am, is that believing in others is truly like giving them a superpower. And I would have to start with my mom and dad, because there were there were points in time, where I didn't maybe believe in myself as much as I should. I mean, we're, we're fragile beings, we're humans. And so, you know, you you go on this journey, and you're not always riding on a high, you take some blows, you get knocked down. And so I think, when I look back, it was obviously my parents. I mean, even when I didn't think I was good enough to play college hockey, or I didn't think I was a good enough college player to play Pro. Or if I go further, you know, I didn't, I didn't think I would get into, you know, when I applied for business school, I applied to the top four. I mean, I applied to, were you when I applied to booth, I applied to Harvard, I applied to Wharton and I applied to Kellogg and and, you know, maybe you so Stanford, and I didn't apply to Stanford, but he chose Stanford in there. And I think that's probably generally the top five. And I mean, I didn't think I'd get in, it's just they're that hard to get in. And my dad, my mom, they believed that I would, you know, and so I think it's them. And then, and they played different roles in the way they believed in me. And then after that, though, along the way, you know, I have to say the ones that really stick out are when I got to Ford, I was very lucky that both Mark Fields and Jim Farley, who are both Well, Jim is now the CEO and Mark had been the CEO, both took an interest in me, and overtime, mentored me and sometimes that meant giving me really hard feedback. You know, like, I remember different times, both of them, called me to their office to tell me, you know, not, hey, you're doing a great job are not, you know, everything you touch turns to gold, but hey, there's like two or three things you need to fix right now about the way you're approaching certain things. And it was kind of hard and they shared it in a certain way where they had gone through and gotten some of that advice on their own too. And I can go into I can go into to sorta to to have those conversations that I remember very explicitly. But I think those two and there was others that were senior to me, at Ford along the way that believed in me to put me in, in a job that I certainly on paper wasn't qualified for, where suddenly I'm leading a team of people that have way more experience than I do at whatever it is that that team is doing. So I would say my parents, I would say those two, you know, I had some others. I had a couple of professors back at Wharton, that that certainly saw that I I had a very, very unique interest in marketing and in operations. So those are the ones that that you know, kind of stick out for me. And you know, there were some coaches too. I mean, I think the one that Probably sticks out the most is there was there was a guy named Kurt Tomlinson, who I played for in Flint for the Flint generals. And this is where I, I just kind of I played for years in college, just sort of a scrappy third and fourth liner. And I got to Flint, and he looked at me and said, Hey, you, you can skate like the wind, you can hit like a truck, and you can hammer the puck, like you're, you're not a third line, or you should be thinking about the powerplay, you should be thinking about the first line I'm going to put you with, you know, with two veterans. And it was just like, those moments in time when when these when these people believed in me, it did feel like it gave me that superpower. And it transformed what I thought I was capable of. And so I try to do that every day with the teams I lead at work with the, the athletic teams, I coach, I think the challenge is sometimes where you fall the shortest on that. And this is where we're human. You know, where I grade myself, when I'm lying in bed at night, I feel like you fall shorter for the people closest to you, you know, I will, I will make sure that kids on coaching on the team feel like I believe in them all the people that I that I have the fortune to lead at work that I believe in them. And then maybe I'm coming down too hard on my kids at home, or you know, or maybe I'm not just given enough of that belief, you know, that superpower into my wife who's carrying so much of the load, we've got three kids, three step kids where you know, we're building a house. So you know, and then I would say to close the loop on your question. My wife does believe in me. And I think that gives me a little bit of a superpower every day when I you know, when I get out of the bed, right and leave the house.

Brad
I mean, it's so, so powerful to have that. And what I what I really like about what you mentioned there is that some of those people who believed in you the most, were the ones giving you the most challenging feedback. And and I think that's so important. And I'd love to hear those conversations that you had with with Jim and Mark, but just to set the stage for those that aren't maybe as familiar with Lee's background. So you went from college hockey, you went to pro hockey, and then you had a knee injury. And then you went and moved to Wall Street, people kind of thought you were crazy, then moving to Wall Street to go work at Ford, and now you're climbing the ranks at Ford. And you're getting feedback from two CEOs at at Ford as as we can now say with the benefit of hindsight, and I'd love to hear what those conversations are like, because obviously you're you're a high riser, but at the same time, you've still got a lot to learn and what were those conversations like and what did you take from them? Yeah, so so i'll i'll i'll take a just a tiny segue because you hit on a theme before and I want to just you just sort of summarize a couple of them. So it's that whole that whole notion of proving people wrong and so I will get I will answer your question but help after pro hockey and I wanted to keep playing I the Buffalo Sabres gave me a chance they had signed me in Rochester, New York and the American Hockey League, which which is the second best league in the world. And that that was a level I never thought I would get to. There I am one step below the NHL. And, you know, this knee just starts to get worse and worse. And it was actually an injury that dated back to my sophomore year of college that just, it was degenerative cartilage in the kneecap. And, you know, I didn't think in May or April of my last pro season, I didn't think by September, I'd be two surgeries and retiring. But I had a great three, four or five years about probably four years at JPMorgan, and it was during the credit bubble. Oh, 307. And when I was leaving, and when everyone was making a lot of money, I had had a lot of success. There was the trading desk at JPMorgan is obviously one of the preeminent banks in the world. And I remember the head of the desk said, right when I told him, I'm leaving, I'm leaving, I'm going to business school. You're crazy Why you can stay here, you're going to be making all this money. I'll be running the desk in the few years that we making all this money. This is why people go to business school. He You're crazy. Right? Exactly. That was it is you're right. You're you're in a job that everyone wants to go to go to Wharton to come back and get or go to, you know, go to booth and come back and get. And I just said, Look, I was so appreciative of my time at JPMorgan and the people there and the culture there, but I just said there's, there's things that I don't know, or do very well now. And I want to go and invest in myself. And I want to learn more. And I've got passions about consumer behavior, I've got passions and interest in supply chain, and, and, and manufacturing. And I want to go study this and learn this and I just I trusted if I get off this train, I'm going to get on another train that's going just as fast. And so I went and when I was in there, it was kind of the same thing. Um, I went and got an internship at Ford Motor Company in the summer of 2008. And we all remember the world was falling apart in oh eight. And it was it was an amazing time at Ford because I found this culture of people that they were not going to let that ship go down and some

Lee
Amazing leadership there, you know, Alan Medallia just gotten there. And that man is a unifier of all unifiers. And, you know, Jim Farley had just gotten there, you know, and and I got there and I saw this culture The, the, the industry was interesting to me and I got back to Philadelphia, and my dad was my dad, very sick, he passed away not long after that, but I remember having this conversation with him saying, Hey, Dad, I want to go back and work at Ford, I want to go be part of this, this this company that's going to do everything they can not to file bankruptcy, everything they can to make it out. And he just said, Look, I you saw what, what working in the newspaper industry did to me, he said, I worked in a dying industry for 25 years every year was do more with less. And, you know, it beats you up. And he said, Are you sure you want to go sign up for that? That's what these American automakers look like. I mean, at the time, you can people that know the history remember Malala Nardelli and Waggoner were testifying in front of Congress asking for money and asking for bailouts. Well, Malala wasn't that he was there to support the other two, but right. And I said, Dad, there's just something special. I want to go, you know, and so this, this, these twists and turns, and then my decision to join you, but you've had some similar conversations before, I'm sure we'll touch on. But I think I just wanted since you highlighted the journey, there was these points in time on the journey where people just said, Why are you making that decision? Why are you going in that direction mean? consensus would say go the other direction, go back to Wall Street, stay at Wall Street, you know, don't go to the don't run into the burning building that is the US auto industry in 2008. And, and I had sort of that faith and belief at that time that by that point, I realized that I did like proving people wrong. I did like betting on myself.

Brad
So you were betting on yourself, and you like to prove people wrong. But was there more to it? I mean, why did why did you believe in Florida at that time?

Lee
You know, it was, again, it was a very special time. There's a lot going on in my life. I mean, my now ex wife and I, we had had our first child, we were living in Philly. My dad was terminally ill with cancer, he passed away at age 58. The other sort of financial markets were falling apart these American institutions like Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns were sort of vaporizing overnight, and the autos are struggling to and but when I when I got to Florida, I had actually growing up in New Jersey had never really experienced this. It's truly a family company mean, of course, you've got the Ford family. And there's so many wonderful people in the Ford family that are that are dedicated, so dedicated to that company. But you also have people that have our third and fourth generation, their, you know, their mother, their father, their grandfather, their aunt, their uncle, all work there. And so there's there truly is this family orientation to that company. And when I got there, I was like the backs were against the wall. It was I think I was there when they reported a $8 billion second quarter loss, you know, on the way to losing I think I'm you know, might get the numbers wrong 16 billion in 2008. And the resiliency was something that I had never seen in mass like that. And so for me, I just said, Look, I I want to go be I want to be on that team, I want to put that jersey on, I want to put my oar in the water I want to grow. You know, there was there were so many great leaders there. And so to me, it was just it was literally like you're, you're watching this team play, you get a chance to play for them for the summer as an intern. I said like, this is it, I want to be here and not. I'd gone to business school to really become an expert in marketing and operations and no better intersection than Ford Motor Company.

Brad
I love it. So you join Ford, you make that commitment. And now you start to rise up the up the ranks a bit right, you're starting to get some pretty meaningful at bats. You mentioned you had some really fantastic mentors along the way. But there's some adversity right from from what you're sharing, but before and there was some conversations where they were saying Haley like this, this stops right now, if you if you want to continue to progress in this company. I'd love to hear more about those conversations. 

Lee
Yeah, they were great. It was great advice. And I and you know, there were other mentors along the way there was there was a guy named john Felice who, you know, he ran your marketing and sales in the US and and and that had a fantastic career there and really was all about teaching and developing. And so there was so many folks that spent time and took time with me. Another one that comes to mind is Amy Moran tick, who she had some huge jobs. She was president of Lincoln, China. She ran she ran a number of the marketing teams for the Ford cars and you know, cars and sports cars, but along the way, so I started to get promoted pretty fast part of the part of what work for me was the same sort of micro strategy that had played out I, I came in, in a rotational program, typical of coming out of business school. And there was sort of a specific track you were supposed to go on. And I, the first job was sort of a upstream product development type roll. And then I was supposed to go into a brand manager job. And brand manager sounds great. But when I actually looked at the job, I didn't really see a whole lot of ownership, a whole lot of accountability, it was kind of a jack of all trades, master of none, no p&l, no accountability, someone else is responsible for sales, somebody hitting the sales numbers someone else was responsible for, for the marketing campaign and the marketing metrics. So I said, I don't want to do that job, I want to go be a marketing manager, I want to lead a large advertising agency team, I want to have a budget that I'm going to deploy, that I'm going to be held accountable for. And there were some folks that said, this is nobody in this program you're in Not a lot of people do that your your your brand managers, the big job, I just said, I just I don't think I'm going to learn as much in the brand manager job, but I'm not gonna have as much of an impact and right, did it. You know, along the way, I had to turn down some opportunities. I, early in my career, they'd wanted me to move to China, and it just wasn't the right time for the family. And so I turned that down, which, you know, again, I was told if you turned out a promotion and opportunity to go overseas, man, your marks person, you never getting that opportunity again. And, in fact, they asked me two more times, and I you know, both times, it just wasn't the right time for the family. And there's another time with China. And another time was was Dubai. And it just, it wasn't right, I certainly ended up spending a ton of time in China, when when I was over there with a couple of the other leaders of the Lincoln brand when we were basically creating Lincoln of China. So then a lot of time there and learned a lot from from people in the culture over there. But those moments along the way, where I got the advice. So the first one was, was Jim Farley. And I had always done my homework. And I had always been prepared whenever I was was was presenting to Jim or any of our other leaders. And Jim had been the chief marketing officer, and he had had a number of roles. And he's a brilliant man knows auto industry better than almost anyone. He is very direct. And he's got strong opinions. And so there were times when I was relatively early in my career where I would get Yeah, I would get in sort of into a combative banter with him, which I think he appreciated. But his advice to me at a certain point was so that there was there was a role that I ended up coming into I I was the essentially the strategy lead for Lincoln. At a time when we were deciding, do we keep Lincoln and if we keep it? How does it How does Lincoln become a successful luxury brand. And I got put into the role and it had been a promotion. And Jim Farley called me to his office, and I walked in, I thought he's gonna shake my hand and congratulate me and tell me that, you know, you're the right man for the job. You know, this is going to be great. We're going to, we're going to make Lincoln a successful luxury brand. This is like 2013. And instead he says, Look, I didn't want you in this job. It's like what other people want to do in this job. I didn't want you in this job. And I want to tell you why. I said, Okay. And he said, You, you're You talk too much. You know, you're you're at a point now, where you're getting, you're leading larger teams, you have large responsibilities. You need to listen more. I know you do your homework, I know you have the data, you need to listen more. And he actually told me that a story, a very similar story of his career, he had started his career at Toyota, or were a senior executive had had a very similar conversation with him. And he said, Look, it changed my approach. And I realized I had gotten to a point where I didn't need to prove that I had done my homework, I didn't need to prove that I was smart, I needed to seek to understand other opinions better. And so it was sort of it was talk less, less of your opinion at this point and pull more out of others pull more and engage people listen better. And it was fantastic advice. And it was there was a very similar conversation I had it was maybe a year or two later with Mark Fields. And he had he again, I was so lucky that the both of these, these gentlemen had repeatedly made time for me. And he kind of called me in on it. It's been another promotion. And I was actually in a in a more senior job now responsible for for most of the marketing for Lincoln in the US. We were doing a campaign with Matthew McConaughey. And it was it was I mean, things were going well. And he called me and he went to his office at 6am. It was dark. He was at the PDC you know, the product development center. And he just said hey, you've done great up to this far. But you still are bringing the answers to every meeting, you now have to start becoming a better asker of questions. So he really he told me that you get to a point where if you try to do the various the senior job, that's the way you did the junior job, you're going to fail. Because you there's not enough hours in the day to know every answer. You have to focus on learning how to ask better questions, being more thoughtful. And so the advice I got from both of them was pretty similar to two different skills, you know, one is listening, and one is actually drawing information and asking questions. But you know, both were pretty hard conversations. So it was kind of like, hey, you've done okay, so far. But if you want to keep going, you have to change. And if those if they if they hadn't cared if they hadn't taken the time, you know, I probably wouldn't have had the success that I've had. So I appreciate that very much.

Brad
Yeah. And I think so many people, when they actually get a get that tough feedback, yeah, it takes a minute to swallow it. It can be, it can be a shot to your ego. But you really wind up appreciating it and respecting people that much more. And so one of the things that I'm always talking about with my team is like, Hey, you need to respect your team enough to have that hard conversation. And I think it's so great to hear, you know, you talk about those experiences in such a vulnerable way that you had these great strong leaders tell you, hey, here's how here's how you need to get better. And now you're looking back at your career and saying, like, No, these were critical moments for me, where I've really learned, I grew. And now you're clearly a better leader for that. And I think that's, that's something that's really exciting to see. And I think too many people are quick to hesitate or to have those hard conversations, but those are the ones that are really meaningful. So, yeah, I want to I want to keep going here in the interest of time, because I know we don't have all day, we'd love to, you know, hear all sorts of stories. But I do want to at least get a chance to hear about your transition from Ford, which is a large international corporation, one of the most well respected well known brands in the in the world. And then here, you transition to this. And maybe not so little of the time, there's still a couple 1000 people working for the organization, but you you join united wholesale mortgage, and you help that organization to grow to a point where it goes public in January of 2021. What What was that decision like for you, Lee, as you left the safe waters of Ford and ventured into a high growth organization, in the mortgage industry, a totally different industry.

Lee
But it was, it was certainly, you know, probably the best professional decision I've ever made. And, you know, at the same time, the scariest and so, you know, I had this great run at Ford. And, you know, I had known that HBO a little, you have some mutual friends, I'd run into him once in a while, but sort of out of the blue, you know, we I connected and got to talking and he said to me, this is probably January of 19. He said to me, hey, look, we're we are on a trajectory to grow tremendously over the next couple years. You know, we're we're right now about 2000 people we are taking share, the play we're running is working. Yeah, I'd really like you to come and join. And I kind of said to do what and he said, Well, he said I don't know what we need. But I know there are things that we're not doing today that we're going to need over the next couple of years. And I want you to come and figure those out and build them. And so I you know, again, I looked at it, and it took me a couple I came to the company, and I had never seen like, it goes back to my time that you and I the Ford culture impressed me at that point in time. So okay, now here I am. 39 years old, I've been at Ford 10 plus years. I come over to Pontiac, Michigan to this relatively new campus that Matt had built and moved the company here. He'd moved them from a couple towns over and everyone was positive. Everyone was happy. The smiles, the hellos. Were all genuine, the energy was electric. And I just thought there's no way this is real. Like there's no way I'm going to come back two or three times I'm going to catch him on a gloomy day. I'm going to come back when it's raining one day. And I you know, and so Matt and I were talking and talking also to our Chief Strategy Officer Aleksey last night, we had some conversations, and I kept coming back and every time was more people here every time but there was just this electricity was real. And so I looked at it and i and i and and this was a moment when I when I went to leave Ford I did have I did have people say look, this is a bad move. You are on a very short list. At the time I had been I had been promoted to the executive level at age 37. I was the youngest executive in the company at that time. And you know, we're so they told me and I always thought there'd be someone someone younger, some younger, exact, some was always someone better. But, you know, that was one thing they had said. And I said, Look, you're there's a huge opportunity cost that you're walking away from. And I looked at it. So I'm 39 years old. I've never met anyone like Manish BIA. You know, he's this dynamic, energetic, positive entrepreneur, I get a chance to work a little closer to home, you know, 15 minute commute, learn an entirely new industry, figure out where the blindsides are and help help build out and protect those, you know, really walk in with a total blank slate and and and, and really the culture, the positivity and Matt, were the real, you know, those are the real factors. And I just said, Look, as hard as this decision feels. If someone came to me and said, This is what I'm facing, I would say you're crazy if you don't give it a try. And so yeah, that was when I came in. And, of course, you know, I joined in May of 19, we had about 23 2400. Team members. Now we're at almost 9000 with a number one wholesale lender in the in the US six years in a row with the number two overall mortgage company in the US, we went public, we're doing some amazing things. We are partnering with VMware, like literally tomorrow where we've donated a huge portion of our campus to Oakland County so that they can use it for a vaccine staging site. So it's been a chance to do things I never thought I would do in business. And And And again, that's the real deal working for him. You know, he's he's not Rushmore business type type of stuff. I always tell him, it's like if they if they put one up with, you know, Elan Musk and Steve Jobs, his head should be up there too. Right. He's that kind of leader.

Brad
Yeah, those are, those are high accolades. But I think that's something that I hear time and time again, from those that have gotten a chance to work closely with Matt, from, from your perspective, what is it that makes him such an elite leader? Yeah, he is by far and this, this resonates with me because I fancy myself as this way as well, but he is by far the most positive person I've ever met. He, he just doesn't, the prospect of failure, or the the risks associated with a decision do not faze him. And he'll be the first to tell you he's made 1000s of mistakes, but he will correct course, so quickly, that he can't remember what the mistake was. Because you realize that you admit the failure, you move on. But it's his positivity, and it's his energy. And it's his passion. And he truly cares. He cares about people, he cares about the business. And so yeah, those things again, you know, I we talked about believing in others is a superpower you can give them, believing in yourself. And being positive, just positive alone, I think is a superpower, everyone can choose to give themselves versity you face a lot in your life. You can either the milk has spilled, you can cry over it, or you can get a towel, wipe it up and just keep charging forward. And that's an amazing thing about Matt, don't we, we appreciate your insights on Matt and you spending, you know, time with us here. But before we let you go, I have just a couple of quick, final questions for you. So first off, what is your biggest pet peeve?

Lee
That's great. So biggest pet peeve would would probably be I mean, it's like the flip side of what we were just talking about. You know, as you get into your 40s, you start to reflect on what makes you you and you become a lot more stingy with how you want to spend your time and you find yourself doing less things because you feel like you have to you like to do what you want to and one of the things I found, I don't like being around people that are inherently negative for the sake of being negative. You know, and so a pet peeve for me is when I see even like, it can be kids, right? teenagers fall victim to this a lot, but just the notion of I'm gonna say something with no intention, other than it being a negative thought that I'm expressing about something about the way I feel like we all have bad days. But negativity for negativities sake is probably my single biggest pet peeve at this point in my life, and I just I don't want to be around it, you know, and so that's my pet peeve. I don't know what what's your pet peeve?

Brad
Well, first, let me just say negativities like parsley, just push that shit to the side of the plate and get it out of here right? My my, my pet my pet peeve is actually not nearly as as as strong and impactful as yours. I really can't stand it when people don't express a tiny bit of gratitude and where that really irks me is no courtesy wave when you when you let someone in on the road. So you know I do live in Michigan. So here I am making an example of something on the roads but you know you go out of your way to lead someone in your wave them And you don't get the courtesy rave back. I don't know why that that always gets under under my under my skin so that that's probably mine. But that's something I just really need to get get over more than anything

Lee
I am, you know, gratitude and respect. They're huge on my list and it's like, yeah, this is the courtesy wave Come on. How hard is it?

Brad
Exactly? Exactly. No, I so I so appreciate that. And as, as someone that was born in Canada, you kind of have to do that, you know, it can get into Canadian standoff at times, almost instantly, you know, you go first. No, you go first. No, thank you. Thank you. Sorry. Sorry. Right. So you sort of like program where you have to do that you have to have that part as you leave? What is the best piece of advice that you've ever received?

Lee
Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna I it's tough to say one. So I'm gonna say two, but I'll be very brief on them. So the first one is something that, you know, I think both my parents instilled My dad was the one who used to say this, but it was it was like, no matter how good you are at something, there is always someone out there, that's better. someone out there somewhere else, it's better. And I have that in the back of my head. And I you let it I use it to fuel it used to fuel Hey, shoot another 100 parks. Now it's, you know, find 10 more minutes in your day to read two articles in the Wall Street Journal, find find a little more time, a few more inches in your day to make yourself better to put yourself in a position to help you and your team and your family succeed. Because there's someone out there that's coming for you and they're born with a little more talent than you they're born a little better than you. So you have to outwork them. The other is, mistakes will happen. And you have to just move forward. And this is where, you know, this is something that it's actually another one I got from my parents. And I think about Tom Brady. I mean, the guy is the greatest quarterback of all time. He's thrown 191 interceptions. So the 191 times the greatest that ever lived is done the is done the ultimate No, no. And what's he do after that happens, he runs off the field, he figures out why the interception happens and he moves on and you can't be thinking about it after you throw it because you're gonna throw some and sometimes it's going to be your fault. Sometimes it's going to be the receiver who didn't run the route, right? Those are going to happen in life. When they happen. You have to learn from them and you have to move forward and move forward quickly because you can't look back and you can't change the past.

Brad
Lee We so appreciate your time and we're excited to look forward and continue to follow your career and the growth trajectory of you personally and united wholesale mortgage. So we're fortunate to have you as part of the mosque Oxford. We appreciate your time and are excited to continue to follow your successes. Thanks for joining us today.

Lee
Thank you very much and there's a courtesy wave to close it out.